Hi Paul

Welcome to the PP community and thanks for introducing yourself.

Mark E

Hi paul.x and everyone else,
I am a college rower with "knee issues". Back in high school I played volleyball and soccer---neither of which caused any pain during running or jumping. It wasn't until I had trained for crew (tonsssss of running) for one year that I began to have trouble with my knees. My doctor diagnosed me with patellofemoral stress syndrome (yeah, fancy name for knee pain due to kneecap maltracking). So I resorted to indoor and outdoor biking. I am now IN LOVE with cycling! But I have two issues 1) It is difficult for me to remember my fitness level back when I ran regularly in comparison to now, as a regular cyclist. I know that I can cycle longer distances without being beat, but the second I go to run I seem to get out of breath pretty fast. Do the aerobic and muscular benefits of cycling rival running? If so, exactly how can I train to physiologically "match" some typical running workouts? For instance, if my coach sends the team out on a 5-mile hilly run, should I do the same course on a bike with higher resistance, do a longer stretch so that my training time equals the runners, or something else? I am just trying to find a way to convince my coach to ad biking to the training regimen for non-runners wink and 2) I recently read an article in Bicycling magazine that discussed how bking can sometimes be harmful for your knees because of the repetition of motion. I haven't had any trouble yet (knock on wood!) but I was just wondering if you (or anyone else out there) has had a knee problem worsen even temporoarily from cycling.

Wow...This is a long message o I hope you have a minute to respond in some way. Thanks!

hi there saphire.....
not sure i'm qualified enough to give a scientific answer to your questions. however, i do know that as i can only run for a maximum of about 45 mins these days this is long enough to give me a workout that feels far more beneficial to an hour or two on a bike, and it is often said that a mile of running is equivalent to about 4 miles on a bike and i think that's about right.
although my training for time trialling often goes in paralell with what i was doing when running seriously it would be difficult to compare the two like for like.

as far as knee injuries go i haven't suffered any on a bike but have had over use problems in my tendon behind my knees, maybe from pushing too big a gear for too long.

all the best for your competitive ventures.!

hi paul x,
thanks a lot for your reply. i know my question was getting a lil on the scientific side, but your answer is just what i was looking for---running to biking averages about 14. When I think of it, that seems about right for a good ride with moderate resistance...I wish it was a little easier to compare the tworoll

thanks again!

Saphire great post. I hope this sheds some light for you.

First: I've never understood why coaches do this. You are a rower, but your coach wants you to run to become a better rower. Running hurts your knees and you can't run ergo you have no chance at being a good rower?

Hmm...let's see...the only reason he has you running is to train your cardiovascular system. There is no physical similarity as I can see between running and rowing.

With cycling however the joint angle at the knee is much closer to what it would be for rowing than it would be if you were running. I would say that is a benefit.

Second: If cycling doesn't hurt your knees and you are able to train aerobically I would say that is a good thing. People say that cycling is bad for the knees. Hmm....tell that to all the procyclists and speedskaters out there who cycle. But what is important is that in your case cycling is better than running and still provides you the aerobic training necessary for rowing.

If you were my athlete I would have you cycle. Granted it is more difficult to get your heart rate up cycling than running but what I would have you do is intervals on the bike to get the heart rate up. You're pull is going to improve much faster as a cyclist cycling at a high intensity than it would as a runner who barely flexes her knee.

How's that? I've seen coaches in tons or sports ruin their athletes because their thought process was so rigid. Don't let that happen to you.

If he forces you to run I would recommend you do everything possible to protect yourself and grit your way through it.

Then, on the side, I would bike to work on your cardio and your quad strength.

Not being able to see you in person there may be other factors that you would need to be wary of. I leave that up to you to be vigilant for. But this should give you another perspective to focus on.

Let me know if this helps you and if you need to discuss anything else.

Jonathan -

I've already introduced myself to the site as a "vet" cyclist, albeit a very active one.
I was just interested to know if anyone out there had any views as to whether i should use the heart rate facility or power output on the turbo sessions i'm doing in preparation for a time trial season.
I've noticed that power reacts quicker and seems a much more accurate system although most training manuals only work to levels based on heart rate.

sapphire, you may want to check out this discussion: http://home.hia.no/~stephens/ventphys.htm .....scroll down to the "Ventilation During Rowing: Special Problems?". Your coach may just be incorportating some cross training. Another site I stumbled upon was this: http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/links/doi/10.1046/j.1600-0838.2003.00324.x/abs/ .... this is a specific comparative study between running and rowing and respective oxygen uptake.

And as far as biking hurting the knees: Shear force on that joint is at its greatest during a 1RM. The factors are both the angle of the joint as well as the force against the musculature and location of the force. (I sure hope I'm making sense here) That is the typical issue that I have seen when one is having knee problems biking. The types of knee problems that occur while running vary and are greater in number if you total them together. I am sure the long time bicyclists here know about proper positioning on a bike and how it can affect the knee joint. Those that don't, I would suggest they find someone that does know because that can make the difference in having or not having knee problems biking. I would agree with mozart and put a person on a bike if running doesn't agree with them. I have not found a person I have worked with that I could not get their heart rate up on a bike. I'm in the "flatlands" and have had to resort to indoor cycling for clients as well. That's been fun because it is so well controlled, for a trainer, as far as workout intensity.

paul.x, I don't know much about power output. I have worked mainly with heart rate monitors. I would be curious to know if you decide to use that method and how you fared. Do you follow a periodization program?

Happy training All

Hello!! JV from Jacksonville, NC. Turning 55 in a couple of weeks and started mountain biking about 18 months ago. Then got a road bike and am cross training on that. However, I ride/practice with the Marine Corps Mountain Bike team and now they've "provoked" me into a Grand Prix series which involves running. Was concerned with the running as I am medically retired form Fire Dept. Back surgery after a fall, blah, blah..
Was having a hard enough time riding as my back was giving me all kinds of grief, Found a Chiropractor that practises ART. 2 sessions and I was pain free for first time in 4 years!! Now I'm really stepping up my training. Anyone with pain..back, knees, shoulders, whatever, should definitely seek out an ART practioner. Use the web to search it out to get an understanding. Only other thing I have is that when I started running again, I remembered a gentleman that's been marathoning for over 20 years with no back, leg, or knee pain. He runs without shoes. (Not me!) But the reasoning behind it is that he says it keeps him off of his heels and on his toes which prevents that constant pounding of the knees, back, etc.
Works for me...Oh, I found this site doing a search for adenosine triphosphate which relates directly to ART as the ADP is a chemical that causes muscle fibers to release. Peace,
FireGuy