Someone please help!!
I am at my wits' end due to a whole year of injury - and I can't get anyone to help me . I have very severe pain in my tibia and calf (inner side) and now can hardly walk, never mind run. I was formerly running about 30 miles a week and running good 10K times. The pain is most severe when going down stairs but is basically present all the time. I have left it alone for long periods (three months at a time) and have stuck to non-impact exercise in the gym. Eventually the pain does subside, but even after one minute's running it is agony again. I have had two MRIs as I did have a malignant mole removed from that area three years ago but, after ruling out recurrence, my GP and the consultant I have seen do not seem keen to do further investigations. I had one tentative diagnosis of a tibial stress fracture, then a different consultant thought it might be tenosynovitis in relation to tibialis posterior. I have been having ultrasound and massage with a private physio but nothing is helping. I am now extremely depressed at the thought that I may never run again, but I am also worried that this could be something like compartment syndrome.
Please could someone advise? I really do not know where to turn now. I would give anything to think that I might eventually get my trainers back on.
Someone please help!!
I am just getting over a similar injury. My pain was on the inside of my knee cap and then it went straight down the inside of my calf muscle. My doc thought it was my hamstring pulling on the calf. Nothing I did with him helped. I have started to lift with my legs a little bit more aggressivley now that the pain has subsided. I have been jump roping and that has helped my lower legs. It took me a long time to get over this injury also. I ran for the first time yesterday since the first of August and I was pain free. I also changed my running form. I looked into Chi running and that seemed to help me. Maybe you could buy some Zoomer fins and a kickboard and kick in a pool for awhile. One thing I forgot about my calf muscle. It was weird, if felt like it was burning. As if someone put a thread on my leg that was hot. Just a very weird sensation I never felt before.
Mike
Someone please help!!
Gingacat I would suggest a visit to a good Podiatriast for a check over and biomechanical assessement to make sure everything is in order with the feet and lower limbs and your gait cycle is not comprimised. I have seen people with big toes that do not function correctly have major problems, it could be that simply so go get it checked mate.
Hope this helps some.
Cheers John Murphy :wink:
Someone please help!!
Thanks for the replies. I am waiting on a referral to see a podiatrist. However, I really think there is something else going on. It is getting excruciatingly painful to walk, despite the fact I am taking loads of Voltarol. My toes are also starting to feel very odd and any time I do put real weight on it it's as if someone is sticking a knife in right at the insertion of the tendon. I have never had so much pain in my entire life. I am almost on the point of visiting A&E with this.
Injury with Shins
I agree with your thinking that something else is going on. Along with a paodiatrist (spelling) you should seek out a sports therapist. Sounds like you could had shin splints at one time but has delveloped into something more; stress fracture or compartment syndrome.
While you were resting from running, did you begin any sexcerisises to sretghtin your shin muscles? Most of the time injuries inthat location are caused by either over training or under developed muslces.
Go to Runnersworld.com and go to the mind & body page. Several helpful articles on injuries (specifically the shins) and how to prevent them. But most importantly, after the podiatrist find a sports therapist that runs.
Good luck, I am just getting over shin splints and it takes while. STOP running, seek medical attention, and start a strength training routine.
Someone please help!!
Thanks. I haven't really done any running at all this year, apart from 4 mins on a treadmill when I had been relatively pain free for a week. This was pretty much pain free but later in the day the pain came on badly again. It seems to be the case that even though the symptoms go away, the very minute I try impact on it it flares up even worse than before.
The only other thing I can think of is some kind of nerve problem. The GP doesn't think it's compartment syndrome because pulses are present and there's no discoloration, but as it's on the posterior bit I have read that this wouldn't necessarily be the case anyway. If it has been a stress fracture, surely it might have healed by now, given that I've been off it for 12 weeks or more at a time...? Mind you, I am a teacher and am basically on my feet all the time so it hasn't had any total rest!
At the moment I'm in the gym for an hour every morning just on the bike and cross trainer. Mind numbing! I just want to get out and run up hills, but fear I won't ever get back to it at all.
Shins
If it is a stress fracture and you are on your feet all day then you are right, it is potentially not getting enough rest.
Since you have been to a GP, your next step is a Sports therapist. They have all sorts of tests they can conduct to discover the issue at hand.
Good luck with this. I know I would be frustrated and pissed off beyond belief if thie were me. Keep us updated when you and the sports therapist figure it out. :)
Someone please help!!
Often these problems generate from poor support within the counter (heel) of the shoes you're wearing. This causes tib post to over contract to prevent hind foot overpronation. Long term this can create micro avulsion fractures at the origin producing the exact pain pattern you are referring to.
3 things need to be done to resolve the problem.
1, purchase a good set of runners. I would recommend either ASICS or Brooks. Do not use runners tat have air soles as they will create problems for you.
2, Check to see if overpronation is a problem. I would recommend seeing a podiatrist. If you do need orthotics, ensure they are fully flexible custom made.
3, Consume a 1cm cube of RAW potato 3 times a day for 6-8 days. This will heel the avulsion problems.
Someone please help!!
Sounds very similar to to a running injuriy that I used to have 2 years ago after just 6 months of running and it still comes back to haunt me every now when I do too many impact exercises.
I looked up many different types of injurys and I just concluded that it was stress fractures scince the cause and symptoms matched it best , but you can't be too sure.
I beleive I got it because I had stopped running for a while and then suddenly started running twice everyday again (It was almost an obsession) on hilly roads and cement footpaths , at about 3 to 9 km distances , I was also trying to run farther and in less time each time I ran , by then Im sure my shoes shock absorption was worn out and I continued to run even though I had calf pain which just keeped getting worse , then I realised this feels nothing like muscle pain it was much worse.
I had to stop running altogether (I was at my peak and this was just about 3 months before the cross country) and as it keepet getting worse so I gave myself rest for a while and it came back again tried again and it keept comming back after each time I gave running a longer rest so I couldn't do much running at all until I had to race with the injury :cry: .
I actully did quite well scince I only did like 5 runs in the past 3 months before the race! , otherwise Im sure I would have made it into state "a dream come true" ; I just missed out into making it into state level by 8 positions in front of me , Im sure I still managed to do this well with injury and been deprived from training because of my secret weapon charbohydrate loading.
Sorry for the long story but my point is I konw exactly how you feel it's very depressing and irritating to be "amputated from your passion" :evil:
After that race I knew it was time to take one big , long rest from running , 3 months of no running later I thought it was gone , my frind asked me to demonstrate some plyometric exercises (on a hard surface) and I could feel it coming back straight away , and back away in the next day or so.
I'd say it took at least 8 months to heal 99%
Now I only run 5 times a week on grass and I take a calcium supplement.
So my advice from this experience is :as above , get in to other types of exercises/sports so if running dosen't work out for you you don't lose everything and get disapointed and depressed (Im gald I still have speed skating it has less impact :) ) , be patient time will heal this type of injury (I now laugh off any normal soft tissue injury unless...) , the calf muscles are fatigued you won't absorb shock as well so make sure you strengthen them in the gym and recover before attempting to run again , back off from exercise the next time you feel it coming back , wear good shoes that match you foot type and running technique and try iceing it.
I hope you find this infomation helpful and encouraging , you can beat it but it may take time and rest from running and other exercises for some time unfortunetly. :arrow:
Someone please help!!
Thanks again for the replies.
Dr Trev - I hadn't logged in for a while and have just noticed your reply. This is quite timely as I had just seen a podiatrist on Friday who has diagnosed exactly the type of problem that you describe involving tib post. He did use quite a lot of terminology that I didn't quite get a handle on, but I think the gist of it was that I am a forefoot striker but that I also have an overpronation problem and my foot is extremely flexible and therefore unstable. My orthotics are being made at the moment. Your reply is encouraging as it does match what he said. I was very sceptical about this as I had always been told that I had a neutral gait with no major biomechanical problems - but without even seeing me walk he asked me whether anyone had ever described my running style as "bouncy", which they have.
This podiatrist is saying that perhaps I will be back running by September if things work out. As much as I know I will have to wait until the problem fully resolves, I think I will be jumping off a cliff if I have to wait until September after a whole year of this. I am trying to keep my spirits up but I have seriously hit rock bottom. My fitness is on the slide even though I am going to the gym daily. I have also gained a stone in weight and although I am nine stone and just over five foot six (so in no way overweight) I do now feel it will be massive struggle to get as fit as I was.
Anyway, sorry for the sob story and thanks again for your help. :cry:
Someone please help!!
Oh, by the way, can you tell me what's in the raw potato that would heal avulsion fractures (just out of interest!). I can't say I am looking forward to it much, but I'll give anything a go if I think it's going to help!
Someone please help!!
We are talking micro avulsion, not a true fracture. It's almost as if the periosteum lifts slightly off the bone.
What you need is phosphatase and a cuple of other goodies. You can also get it from taking raw veal bone. (I believe you can get in ground form in the US). Much easier just to use the potato.
Someone please help!!
Mate the problem isn't that big an issue. If the orthotics are flexible orthotics (best style as they allow for normal foot movement during running) and you follow the nutritional guidelines, you should find that it is right within 2-4 weeks.
To help encourage healing, take 175-age. Use a heart rate monitor andexercise (bike probably best) with your heart rate below this level, but as close to it as possible. You will probably find this will be quite slow at first. In addition, at the moment get some sports tape and tape you heel forward. ie. create a U strap pulling the back of your heel forward. This will take pressure off the plantar fascia and the spring ligament.
Also avoid all stimulants eg. Caffiene, refined sugar, nightshade veggies (tomato, capsicum, egg plant, chillis, and large volumes of potatos). These will all cause neurological inhibition of the Tib Post muscle and aggravate the problem (Complicated). Good luck.
Someone please help!!
I am interested in what you say about nutrition. I am pretty much veggie (fish eating) but probably do not pay close enough attention to my diet at the best of times. Don't fancy the veal much....! Thanks for the advice. I'm encouraged by what you say about 2-4 weeks. However, as I've not been able to weight bear properly for a year I can't help still feeling slightly pessimistic. I've just seen my own physio who has done some ultrasound and massage and given me exercises to strengthen tib post.
Someone please help!!
My apologies, hadn't realised was such a chronic problem. I wouldn't suggest doing tib post exercises. The problem isn't that it is weak, it is a ligamentous support problem. The physio quite possibly doesn't understand the biomechanics of the problem properly. The reason the calf is saw is because tib post is working to hard trying to hold the navicular and medial arch up. There is no need to strengthen it as every time you stand it is working like crazy. Hence you are already strengthening it.
The problem is that it is this overworking which is causing the pain and the origin insertion problem. Using it more will only worsen the problem. It needs to be rested. In this I mean in needs support so that it can heal.
The muscle doesn't need the strengthening, it is the ligaments within foot-ankle complex that need the strengthening. However, ligaments can't realistically be strengthened as muscles are. Hence they need the support (orthotic)
Even with the chronic nature, the pain itself should settle down within a few weeks of starting the potato and probably functioning again within a couple months if managed right.
Someone please help!!
Dr Trev, some very good points made about soft tisssue issues (no pun itended) I get this alot at my clinic, people constantly go on about strengthening when in fact they have a malfunction somewhere.
I refer a lot of people to the podiatrist that work at my clinic and I will not hesitate to refer out if thats where the expertise lies, but I have never understood why people are constantly given strengthening exercises to do when a muscle is not functioning properly, the spasms, trigger points etc are never taken care of first, I believe strength in it self has become the panacea of all evils with regards to rehab.
Cure the source of the problem not the symptoms, classic example people attending with back pain/spasm and the problem is an ankle equinus, sort the equinus and ease the spasm no back problem.
keep up the good work Doc, it's an education reading your posts, although I must admit I do not understand the nutritional side of your treatments :oops: .
Have a good un, cheers John Murphy
Someone please help!!
Thanks. What you are saying makes sense in terms of the pain I've been experiencing (there's also been a strange feeling in the foot at times).
I have just bought some potatoes, so here goes with the "raw" regime. I will let you know how it goes!
Someone please help!!
John, to understand the nutrional basis of what I am saying you really need to understand neurology well. I'm not talking about the pathological or anatomical neurology we get taught at college/uni, I'm referring to proper functional clinical based neurology.
I'll give you an example, people who are fatigued constantly. If you repeptiviely test both an aerobic and an anaerobic muscle under those conditions, you will find it blows out weak. This is a result of a problem with the conduction of the nerve under stress. The myelin is dependant on Essential Fatty Acids (EFA) for production (here comes your physiology). Hence an EFA supplementation will rectify this. The exact EFA can be tested for using a similar approach (no bloods) but is complicated. 90% of the time though it tends to be Omega 3. (This is not to say evryone fatigued has this problem as an aerobic weakness may come from an iron, deficiency or thyroid dysfunction or an anaerobic from a B5 deficiency etc...)
In terms of tib post function, embryologically when we first had somites deviding to form mesoderm ectoderm etc..., these tissues (in simplified terms) became associated neurologically. Hence various organs and muscles become neurologically associated. For example, the adrenal glands are associated with Sartorius, Gracillis, Gastrocs, Soleus, Tib Post. Hence if you are having a pattern weakness associated with these muscles, often it is due to dysfunction within the organ. An example of this type of pattern would be someone who is in an overtraining syndrome that now has cortisol levels and the like abnormally. Often to rectify the muscle problem, the underlying systemic problem needs to be dealt with. In this case, it is usually nutritional (too many stimulants in the diet or a B1,2,5 deficiency) or too much anaerobic based training.
For gingercat, what he is describing sounds like it is a golgi tendon problem as a result of poor arch support. Ideally the additional in-clinic therapy would be to push on the origin-insertion and approximate the origin-insertion with circular motions. This will reset the golgi tendons. However, phosphatase often does a similar thing and aids in the case of recurrent golgi tendon problems. So for self advice, it's the best thing he could do.
Just need to remember that there is 2 forms of strength. Resistive and Compressive. The prior is where neurological weaknesses are found.
Trevor.
Someone please help!!
Doc, thanks for the reply I now understand where you are coming from, second question if you do not mind, where do you learn to apply this style of treatment college book etc.
I use a lot of tendon work to "reset" the muscles etc along with NMT, myofacial work and of course the good old massage. I treat "wholelistical" as I like to call it but I must confess the nutritional side of the equation is not my strong point.
Again thank you for posting it's always an education.
Have a good un, cheers John Murphy :wink:
Someone please help!!
Mate a lot of it is just Chiropractic knowledge (not the nutrition) the neurology. The actual muscle-neurology-chemistry stuff etc... is covered under Applied Kinesiology. Unfortunately unless you have the title of Dr. (ie. Chiro, MD, Osteo) you cannot formally learn it. This is because you are required to have a certain level of knowledge on neuology and physiology to be able to understand the information and utilise it correctly.
AK is a 100hour basic course (similar to a heavy semester at uni) then comes all the specific nutritional stuff etc... after this.
If you want to study it yourself get a copy of "Apllied Kinesiology Synopsis" by David Walther. It is available from systems DC at http://www.systemsdc.com/product/ak_s2.htm. Email me personally if you want any help with it.
Trevor
Someone please help!!
Cheers Doc for the info, hope I did'nt hijack your thread to much ginga.
Have a good un, cheers John :wink:
Please help
I have been training with a Pt for 6 weeks at the gym to lose weight. I run and walk on treadmill, use the rowing machine and free weights as well as the machine weights. I am very keen. However since i started my right leg gets hot not to the touch but internal little or no pain just worrying - 3 years ago I partially ruptured my achilles i have not done any strenuous exercise for years. - can anyone please help!