After exercising you get a build up of lactic acid (waste product)-don't know if this is what is effecting you. After exercising you should do a cool down and not simply stop all movement. A cool down reduces the build up of lactic acid and reduces DOMS (Delayed Onset of Muscle Soreness) Also the more you train the higher your lactate threshold becomes (amount of lactic acid your muscles can take before you fatigue) I don't think that this is the cause of your problem but could be adding to the tiredness. Is it muscular fatigue or just general in the body where you can't do anything or mixture? I don't really know much about it but would like to.

Yes, lactic acid buildup is what I'm talking about. This is NOT a cause of CFS, just a result, i.e. one of the symptoms. (I do think if the doctors would study this symptom seriously it might lead to finding a cause, which so far has eluded them.) I'm just trying to figure out how to treat this symptom.

I do do a cooldown, but so far that hasn't helped at all.

Tell me more about DOMS.

Training to build up lactic acid tolerance would be impossible I think. Some experts feel that graded exercise training will help, even cure, CFS. It's obvious to people with CFS that these experts do not have the disease themselves, or they would see the absurdity of the suggestion! I can do exercise today. I just can't do it again the next day or the next week or sometimes more.

It's hard to describe the fatigue. It was very sudden in onset. I woke up one morning feeling very tired and knew something was very wrong. I thought I'd go to a doctor instead of work. I ate breakfast, dressed and went out the door to my car which was parked right in front of the door. About halfway to the car I realized that I could either turn back and fall into the bed, or continue on and fall into the car seat. I didn't think I could even drive. Up until that time I was very active and in reasonably good shape.

The post exercise malaise is just a deadening fatigue (lifting a finger is difficult) that descends after exercise of any kind. No loss of strength or stamina. Sometimes I don't even realize I'm doing any 'exercise' until I crash the next day. It's definitely a muscular thing, with soreness and stiffness, but it's so overwhelming that the whole body is involved.

Any suggestions welcome!!! :)

Alice

Ok here's some information on DOMS:
Delayed Onset of Muscle Soreness is characterised by tender and painful muscles often experienced in the days following heavy exercise. The explanation of this soreness is simple and results from the damage to muscle fibres and connective tissue surrounding the fibres. The soreness is usually temporary and goes away within a couple of days as the muscle fibres repair themselves. DOMS are most likely to occur following eccentric contraction and can result from weight training, plyometrics or even just walking down steep hills. Eccentric contraction is the lengthening of the muscle as it works to resist gravity, e.g. running downhill. Plyometrics most commonly take the form of 'bounding' and 'depth jumping' in which you drop down from a height, land and immediately rebounds. You aren't supposed to do plyometrics often (just 2-3 times a week max to stop prevent overtraining) but I'm sure you aren't doing this if you feel tired after exercising! However I would avoid all kinds of plyometric training and weight training as they are quite intense.
Something I've just thought of is energy systems. We're doing them at the moment in Alevel PE. When you first begin to exercise you use a system called the ATP-PC system. When you exercise ATP (adenosine triphosphate) becomes ADP (adenosine Diphosphate) which releases energy, in order to maintain enrgy levels for muscle contraction Phosphocreatine (PC), which is found in the muscle, is broken down which gives an immediate source of energy to resynthesis ATP. The breakdown of PC is catalysed by the enzyme Creatine Kinase, which responds to rising levels of ADP. Perhaps- and this is just a thought I could be completely wrong :? -after you exercise your levels of PC take much longer to build up again or you have naturally low levels of Creatine Kinase meaning that there is nothing to trigger the breakdown of PC and therefore the production of ATP and so energy- which is why you feel so fatigues for days after you exercise?! Just a thought. I know that you can get Creatine supplements as some athletes use these as physiological aids and performance enhancements. Not sure that it's what you need though. Hope some of what I've said is a help.
My brains aching now from all that thinking!!! :D

steph

Forgot to mention but I think that you use the ATP-PC system in everyday things such as getting out of bed (or as you said earlier lifting a finger!)

Hi Alice, I think the DOMS is a red herring.
I suggest you go to see a Cognititve Behavioural therapist to help you come up with practical solutions to your problems. There is a definite overlap in symptoms between CFS, Underperforming Syndrome and depression. It is important that you see a GP who has an understanding of this so that you get a correct diagnosis and then are able to move on.
I have had experience of working with athletes who have had all 3 of these problems, there is no easy fix and I empathise with you about how debilitating it can be.
The good news is that everyone has managed to cope withthe symptoms and resume exercise to some extent.
Good luck

Approx seven years ago agter a 1.5 hr session at the gym I felt exhausted and on reaching my home immediately went to lie down and slept for about three hours. It took me approx. 3 days to recover - before another gym session. If climbing stairs my legs became exceptionally tired and after 5/6 stairs out of breath. I had to sit down. Occasionally the mere action of getting out of bed would make me breathless and a short walk to the bathroom necessated my having to rest again. Having to stand in one place for longer than a minute or two also made me sit down. These episodes can last up to three months (i require extra sleep) and then become less for a couple of weeks and so it goes on.

Any help out there, I,m desperate.

i agree with your comments above, however, I don't seem to have the same level of pain. i was always very fit until after overtraining, and the illness, i crashed and burned. now, after a year of trying to recover and correctly diagnosed, i have recently rejoined the gym. As you say, the stamina, strength, flexibility is as you would expect from anyone, however, as soon as i get home, i just need to sleep. The feel good hormones don't seem to have been released, and energy stores totally empty. I make sure that I eat a good diet and a good mix of protein and carbs after excersizing, but i just need to sleep. the next morning i feel that i just need to sleep, and the recovery/or pay back as we refer to it in cfs talk, is that the excersize is too much. but i need to get fit again, and no matter how low, or high i set my base line, the recovery seems to be the same. Surely someone knows how to deal with this. like you say, the physiology just isn't understood, and the advisers talk theory but know little about the practice. This isn't a CBT issue, it's physical. The battery is flat and no matter what I do, I can't seem to refil it, unless i incorporate time for lots of additional sleep.

Many of the symptoms mentioned above I have been battling too. I’ve been to many different doctors trying to find an answer including homeopathic doctors, endocrinologists, infectious disease doctor, a couple different general physicians, and none haven’t gotten me any closer to an answer. The endocrinologist, however, did find a deficiency in human growth hormone, but nobody has advised that there is a linkage between CFS/ post exercise malaise and a deficiency in HGH. Treatment for HGH deficiency hasn’t relieved any of the fatigue like symptoms, which range from general fatigue, brain fog, depression, to extreme fatigue that requires days of extra rest to recover. Exercise and stress are the many causes of the symptoms, but going without exercise also causes issues which can be relieved with very light exercise. Days where I feel normal I will try to exercise (generally weight lift) a little bit harder, only to immediately feel tired right after or sometimes the next day will be difficult to function. I’ve tried supplements ranging from A-Z and have only found one to be of any benefit; L-Carnitine. I’ve read that the amino acid L-Carnitine has found to have some deficiency with people with CFS. It has made an absolute positive impact to my life immediately and have been able to start working out again, but I’ve come to find a new limit with my exercise. I’ve definitely hit a wall again, but have been able to put on some weight after not working out for many years. If anyone else has similar issues, please share. I hope that some of you will try L-Carnitine and report any feedback.

Try having your parathyroid (not thyroid) and blood calcium levels checked. You can find information on line about parathyroid functioning. I also find Acetyl L-Carnitine useful along with Alpha lipoic acid, CoQ10 and vitamin D. Vitamin B 12 shots helped me temporarily and Me-Cofactors. I'm waiting for my parathyroid blood test results. I stopped running and biking because I couldn't afford the after effects of having to sleep and the general malaise I experienced along with other symptoms, even though I felt fine and was capable during exercise. Now I do a lot of hiking but I'm beginning to have the same problem with that. I think chronic fatigue is just a catch-all category that isn't very useful. Yes, that is what I just told you-- I am chronically fatigued, and all you can say is I have chronic fatigue syndrome? Hummm, there must be something else to understand. I'll let you know when I come up with the answer.

This something I'm experimenting on with myself right now. I've had CFS for about 6 years - formerly heavily into weight training, fitness, sports science, etc. So I'm trying various combinations of all the standard CFS and (recently) sports and bodybuilding supplements, along with various different exercise and pacing protocols, and I've been mapping my activity levels (wearing a pedometer - step counter) and symptoms, along with any changes to the protocol for over a year, in Excell.

First point is that anything you do to make your symptoms temporarily worse is setting back your recovery. I don't think CFS is a disease or illness, as such, I think it is a syndrome (serious of vicious circles) which are set in place by chronic stress: exercise, viral, emotional, etc. and probably a genetic disposition.

This is probably why it affects Type A personalities - we're more likely to push ourselves and overreach, and this can stunt our chances of recovery. The people who tend to do best are the ones who start sleeping 12 hours a day and taking it really easy as soon as the symptoms start.

Interesting observation I've made is that while pacing - (keeping exactly within your limits, so you absolutely minimize symptoms while being just active enough) - long-term, there's a gradual trend, albeit with ups and downs, of increased daily activity. And it's SLOW. And it probably represents mitochondrial repair.

I've been taking Acetyl-L-Carnitine (2g/day), CoQ10 (400mg going down to 100mg), D-Ribose (15g/day), Niacinamide (500mg/day), and Magnesium (400-500mg/day), for mitochondrial assistance... Really made a big difference - don't expect immediate energy; this is about long-term repair, so you'll need lots of rest...

Also take full range of vitamins and minerals, including high doses of B vitamins and 1mg/day B12. Sometimes taking magnesium through the skin works better at getting levels up than orally. You can buy magnesium oil, or bathe in epsom salts - or trying injections. Magnesium's VERY often low in CFS, and involved in hundreds of biochemical reactions.

The interesting thing is that whether I'm resting all day or on graded exercise programmes, the recovery trend is barely altered at all. That is unless the exercise I do provokes symptoms, in which case the recovery's often set back weeks/months.

I'm now experimenting now with sports supplements to aid muscle recovery and immune function: L-Glutamine (15g/day - repairs tissue, protein synthesis, improves immune function), BCAA's (10g/day - improves muscle recovery, blocks tryptophan uptake which directly lifts fatigue), Malic Acid (2g/day - very important for Kreb cycle, ATP/ADP recycling, etc.), and also adding L-Lysine (1-2g/day - precursor to Carnitine).

Very promising results so far. Activity trend's gone up significantly - although it's been less than a month, and knowing what I know about mitochondrial recovery, I'm deliberately trying to keep within normal activity levels, for risk of crashing.

I think the best form of exercise for CFS is short duration, moderate intensity, and varied, so you're hitting different muscles on different days.

I've not quite figured out my muscle recovery time yet, but for normal people it's usually 5-7 days - most people hit the same muscle groups more frequently and do really do themselves any favours.

Best way is to listen to your body, and graph symptoms.

The best exercise is possibly anything you can do in a 5 minute time-frame. The anaerobic system seems less affected than the aerobic system, so might be best to start with a slow, 5 minute walk, and build up speed, rather than time.

Should have a LOT of data by the time I've got myself back to normal. Which I'm well on the way to doing I think. Only 2 years ago I was too tired to breathe most the day!

Dear Maynard,

I like your scientific approach to measure your CFS progress. I too have thought to try the very same thing, but for the last couple years I've been subjectively monitoring my progress by adjusting one thing at a time. I've made some improvements since my last post last December. I've got the diet and supplements down and now it is scaling back the stress as you've define it. My stress comes mostly from the anaerobic weight lifting, which is my passion so it has been difficult to stop lifting heavy weights. I’ve found aerobic to be more detrimental, although walking doesn’t seem to be harmful.

I've read a few of your other posts from various websites and have found that you’ve tried many supplements. What has worked best that you’ve found? I’m currently taking Creatine, D-Ribose, B complex, Carnitine, Vitamin D, and some probiotics.

Also, can you describe a bit how mitochondrial repair plays a role in CFS?

Kind Regards,

Dustin

Hi,

I'm a swimmer and a few times, I've come home after practice completely exhausted and fatigued... it usually takes about 2 hours for the extreme fatigue to set in and once the sleepiness starts, there's no turning back. And as one person mentioned, lifting a finger, or even waking up from sleeping is tough.

I've noticed that it has to do with the intensity of the workout as well with how fast/soon after you refuel your system.

The more intense the workout, the sooner you need to refuel afterwards. For me, the window of opportunity to prevent the fatigue mentionned above is roughly 45 minutes after I stop training. I need carbs, protein... and a good number of calories to start the recovery process.

Every time I've neglected to do this, the fatigue has settled in and it takes me a few hours to recover.

I'm definitely a fan of a warm-down routine after intense training (ie: let the body slowly wind down before stopping), it helps a lot to recover faster.

Hope this helps...