Alex,

I certainly dont have the experience or knowledge of many of the posters on this site, however, i would like to comment on this thread.

I was participating in Australian Strength & Conditioning Association Level 1 course yesterday and had this very same discussion with the lecturer.

He stated that he hated the words core stability and that the need to focus on it was very overrated for trained athletes. His argument was exactly the same as the one you have given of your weightlifting colleague.

He also gave examples of several elite sporting teams in Australia that do not program trunk only sessions. The trunk gets all the work it needs to from the strength exercises that the athletes complete as part of their regular strength training.

As previously mentioned i have very little experience in this area, but i will say that to me yours and his arguments make complete sense. I manage a gym and the only reason i can give for prescribing abdominal work at the end of a session is because thats what i was taught. A lot of the content delivered during my study was all about Paul Chek. Has the fitness world paid too much attention to him and swiss balls?

I do believe there are sports that require particular attention to strengthening the abdominal area. It is essential in the fighting arts where competitiors can expect to receive blows to the abdominal and lower back area.

I look forward to reading the comments that this thread will no doubt raise.

Great question - doesn't that show us all the poor state of education? Here we have so many fitness courses using / relying on information from individual with no formal qualifications. His testing procedures have become famous for being invalid / unscientific / unreliable.

I think a lot of Paul Cheks work is misunderstood. If you look at his primal movements system (squat, lunge, rotate, push, pull, bend and gait), he speaks heavily on the importance of these and the role of the trunk control/stability within these movements and exercises.

Where he is misunderstood is that he spends all day assessing every possible dysfunction to see if the need is present for more low level stuff. People see this and think it is necessary when it may not be. But what everyone sees when you used to look on the website in the early days is a picture of him front squatting on a swiss ball! You can see why people get misunderstood (I dont advocate standing or squatting on a swiss ball!).

Chek's work should be used as a means of teaching the importance of critical analysis. Findings from rehab do not always cross over to finding in prehab etc.

A lot of his work is misunderstood as he back tracks regularly so people do get confused with his work. What i meant was not x but y or was that c?

You are correct and do not dispute the fact about critical analysis. What I am stating is that he clearly states the relevance of fundamental movements (his primal patterns) as total conditioning including the function of the core. His low level stuff is all based on dysfunction while we are exploring performance core outcomes and goals.

If you get a chance, purchase the book from Evan Osar - Form and Function. It is a good read on the importance of the core and how it is used effectively while moving.

My issues are that a lot of the research and findings of core training is based on those who have dysfunction with it supporting GeorgeSta's comment of rehab & prehab - how does this relate to someone who has never had issues before and are they likely to because they have never undertaken a formalised specific core conditioning programme? I dont believe so.

Agree with all that has been discussed. I've never fully understood and as I become more educated on sports performance conditioning have started to question the rationale for implementing/performing trunk exercises in isolation from whole body movement which are specific to the action(s) found in competition. I also question the use of "traditional" core development exercises prescribed by so called "professionals" such as sit ups, crunchies etc. How often do we repeatedly contract and relax our abdominal musculature laying down in sport?! If there is a dysfunction then shouldnt this be adressed in context to the specific movement patterns upon which it impacts?

I've been a little out of synch with the forum so have only just found this thread.

I agree there is a LOT of controversy with regards to core stability and the need/role for it in training prescription.

I believe that as with most other exercises, where too often exercises are given because of what the exercise can achive, as oppose to what the individual actually requires; Kendal has a good book on muscle testing and function which offers some good advice on core function and roles.

I try and consider secondary roles during the specific activity e.g. are any muscles aiding in respiration or maintainance of internal pressures?

I think the training obviously must reflect the demands of the sport, for example where I would prescribe some core work for a sprinter to help avoid unwanted movement during sprinting, for martial artists or netball players I would be looking at the pevlic control during sudden changes of movement and their ability to control lateral movements through their hips as oppose the their lumbar spine.

I also agree that crunches and sit ups are often not the best choice for core work regardless of whether there is a dysfunction present or not.

Personally I use a pressure bio-feedback unit to assess an individuals core control and then depending on their ability decide on specific and/or compound work for progressions

Kendall looks solely at the muscle in a controlled active manner with no real regard to true athletic performance such as sprinting or squatting. While I agree there is a need for assessment, I dont think it is necessary to test every muscle individuallu in the kinetic chain to determine if a guy can squat. If he can, fine but if there is dysfunction appropriate assessments can be made and these dont necessarily need to be muscle testing like Kendall and Chek.

If there is no dysfunction in a sprinter and the athlete can control the rotary forces of the upper extremities and trunk, then why is there a need to prescribe trunk work? All their training requires the trunk to work in a manner that is optimal for performance so overloading the necessary kinetic chains for performance. If there is an issue of dysfunction or weakness, then yes additional trunk work maybe neccessary to improve performance. But if there is nothing wrong, then why bother. Resistance training and sprint training will have the necessary stimulus for the trunk in the most optimal positions and velocity.

Bio-feedback units are again a test of singular contractions in a controlled active environment which has little to none crossover to high level performance. Only when dysfunction is present would this type of assessment be necessary. What it fails to tell you is the cause of dysfunction which could have nothing to do with the integrity of the inner unit but globally the outer unit systems are weak and cannot control the forces placed upon them causing a breakdown if the inner unit. If bio-feedback is a tool used to assess, then strength diagnosis then has to be completed. If dysfunction is present, there is no point addressing this when the true cause is the inability of a sprinter to control 6 x body weight through single leg stance at max acceleration. Dysfuntion and othapeadic injury is purely the result of the bodies inability to dampen and control the forces placed upon the body.

I dont disagree with trunk when it is necessary for weakness or overloading the body but sometimes I fail to see how a cable chop or plank will improve sprint performance with someone with no dysfunction.

I agree that if form is good and there is no dysfunction then many exercises will be time wasters, and to be honest in actuall performance then static holds such as the plank are rarely suitable. The biofeedback units provide a usefull way to bring movement into core training in addition to providing a tool for assesment and goal setting for progressions.

When considering core stability for sprinting there is only really the questions: can the athlete controll their movements? and can they resist self generated forces (such as the effect of hip flexors on anterior pelvic tilt)?

When considering other sports such as rugby or martial arts there is a whole multitude of additional factors that requires consideration therefore core controll training becomes more viable. With the martial artists I work with they can often perform low level work (below waist) with ease; but when training at high levels (say rib cage and above) there is a whole host of adaptations that appear in order to gain additional height with kicks, which once again requires the consideration of core training.

Its slightly ironic actually that considering core work usually takes 10-15mins that it often requires so much more time to assess whats required and prescribe!! I agree that there is def no need to test the whole kinetc chain, but more often then not i find testing the core proves usefull (though i should admit that I don't train eltite athletes so undoubtidly am dealing with lower levels of fitness and proprioception/kinasthesia).

I have noted with interest lately some research on joint stability and max explosive power, although it is unfinished (and therefore unpublished) as of yet - but i try and follow up and see if there are any progressions if you'd like?

Can you expand on the other considerations for core control training multi-dimensional sports like rugby or martial arts? Controlling movement and self generated forces is only the action. Controlling the reaction of these is as important in sprinting and other sports.

I would be interested to hear what the research shows on stability. Is this research you are carrying out or you know someone who completing it? I would imagine the research may show less stable a joint is, the less force than can be generated. I dont know if you have any influence on the direction of the research but it would be interesting to look at accuracy of limb movement and stability such as boxers punch and the shoulder stability. Also the stiffness of a joint such as the ankle while sprinting and the stability of the ankle - does this require rigidity, stability or the combination of both? These would be interesting areas to investigate.

Very good point indeed Alex. I think that in some cases (and i have seen some weird stuff - guys pressing weights while kneeling on a swiss ball or skate board) the instability training can compromize the safety of the exercise. Also, you can do the same exercise on a stable surface with far more weight therefore maximizing muscle tension.

I would like to know if anyone knows a training routine that i could do i want a six pack and high performance abs

These are my favourite ab routines

1) dragon flags (Bruce Lee's favourite)
2) hanging side kicks
3) wiper blades
4) reverse crunches with static holds
5) full contact twist
6) russian twist
7) L sit on gym rings

i dont know what they are could you describe them or send me a link to a website with pictures

Hi Reg_razor, drop me a line at

and i will try to put some video clips for you. The pic of dragon flag is on my website www.matraining.com.au but the video clip will be much better.